The Debate

"Good evening. I'm Graham Finch, and I warmly welcome each of you to another exciting Sunday night episode of The Debate. It's always a pleasure to have you tuning in for another session of The Debate, where we cover some of the most thought-provoking topics of the day. Tonight, we're exploring the fascinating and complex topic of morality, a theme that influences every aspect of our lives, from everyday decisions to our most profound beliefs and values. We're truly honored to welcome a distinguished panel of guests this evening. First and foremost, please join me in welcoming Professor Peter Stone, a highly respected philosopher, university lecturer, and the author of over twenty books on philosophy. Professor Stone has dedicated much of his academic career to studying the intricate and often challenging nature of ethics and human values, making him an ideal voice for this important discussion."

"Thank you for having me here."

"Thank you, Professor. It's a pleasure to welcome you to our program. Your presence greatly enriches what we do, and we are honored to have you here today."

"Thank you."

"Next, we are excited to be joined by His Excellency Bishop Matthew Abbot, a renowned theologian from the Roman Catholic Church. Bishop Abbot has written numerous influential books on divine power, spirituality, and the hidden mysteries of faith, making important contributions to current theological research. His insights and perspectives are highly valued, and we look forward to his thoughtful contributions to tonight's discussion."

"Thank you, Graham. I'm delighted to be here on your great program."

"Thank you, Your Excellency, for accepting our invitation on such short notice."

"My pleasure."

"Tonight's discussion will explore different aspects of morality, looking at the complex connection between faith and human experience. We will examine how beliefs based in faith shape our moral choices, compare these with insights from personal experiences, and discuss what this means for understanding right and wrong in various settings. Stay with us as we explore this important subject together. I'll start tonight's debate by asking His Excellency: What is morality?"

"Thank you, Graham. Morality is a system of principles and values that guides and shapes human behavior. This system is deeply rooted in God's character as shown in the Bible, especially through the life and teachings of our Savior Jesus Christ, who perfectly represents moral behavior. Morality goes beyond simply following rules. It embodies a way of living that reflects the divine will and aligns actions with eternal truths. It influences how people make decisions, interact with others, and pursue a higher purpose, ultimately creating a moral society based on spiritual truth and divine guidance."

"So, you really believe that without religion, there is no morality at all?"

"Yes, Professor. Religion and faith in a creator have introduced morality into human societies."

"You mean that if we don't believe in a creator, or God, we're just animals driven by instinct?"

"Not animals, no. But certainly adrift."

"Adrift?"

"Yes, Adrift. Humanity will undoubtedly be lost. Without a connection with the creator, we will wonder. How can we be sure of what is right or wrong?"

"It is well-documented that children as young as two years old, long before they learn about religion and God, show a sense of morality. Though their understanding of right and wrong is simpler than that of older children and adults, they show empathy by responding to the distress of others. Research also suggests that toddlers as young as nineteen months understand the concept of fairness. They react to unfair situations like one child receiving all the toys and the other getting none."

"I doubted it."

"It is a well-studied topic in child psychology and development that dates back to the early twentieth century. If you're interested, I can provide a list of books by those researchers. However, I should warn you, it will be a long list of publications."

"Those children might pick up the basics of morality from their Christian parents."

"This kind of research has been done in many countries, including some non-Christian cultures, and the results were almost similar."

"If morality is just a human creation, then it's as temporary and subjective as fashion. What's good today could be evil tomorrow, depending on who's in charge or what society decides is convenient."

"Bishop, do you think the morality introduced by a divine power is more stable?"

"Of course it is."

"Even when considering divine morality, it is natural for imperfect individuals to see it through their personal perspectives, influenced by their own biases. Leaders in organized religious groups often claim to have a deeper or more accurate understanding of divine morality. They may use this authority to manipulate followers or alter teachings to serve their personal interests. Over time, this can distort the purity of divine morality, causing it to lose its true meaning and guiding principles."

"Divine morality remains constant because the Lord safeguards it."

"Bishop, I think you didn't listen to what I just said."

"In fact, I listened well. I also noticed you have a grudge against religion and God, sir."

"Do you believe the Bible is the book of God? And is it free from any flaws?"

"Yes, it is."

"Okay, so why are there so many Christian denominations, each interpreting the Bible differently?"

"The proper way to follow Christianity is through Catholicism, which has been the guiding tradition of the faith for centuries. Other interpretations or denominations, while honoring the core principles, may be seen as deviating from the original divine guidance and thus could be viewed as straying from the true spiritual path."

"Thank you, Bishop. You proved my point. When the holy book can be interpreted in different ways, why shouldn't the divine morality you mention be open to interpretation as well? History is filled with atrocities committed in God's name, with acts of unimaginable cruelty justified as divine commands. Does that sound like an objective, unchanging foundation to you?"

"Those are distortions and misinterpretations! The true divine commands are clear, embedded in our hearts, and revealed through scripture. They are not the fault of the perfect source but of the imperfect vessel. And tell me, sir, if not from the divine, where does your morality come from? From reason? From empathy? Both are fallible, subject to bias and personal perspective."

"They are fallible, yes, but they are ours. Morality stems from our shared human experience, our capacity for empathy, and our rational understanding of what fosters societal growth. We see suffering and instinctively pull away. We recognize that cooperation, fairness, and compassion lead to better outcomes for everyone. These aren't divine revelations; they are conclusions drawn from living, observing, and reflecting."

"So, if a society were to decide that sacrificing a human being is a rational action, justified by the belief that it would lead to a flourishing outcome for their community, would that decision be considered ethical according to your secular moral standards? In the absence of a higher authority, who is there to say that such an act is inherently immoral?"

"In fact, child sacrifice was common in some early religions, and a high priest usually performed the ritual."

"I've never heard of it; however, they were probably Satan worshipers."

"In Mayan religion, child sacrifice was a common practice. They offered children to the rain god Chaac, probably to please him for more rain and so more harvest."

"I haven't heard of their primitive rituals before. However, as I mentioned, they must worship Satan."

"I find it interesting how you blame Satan for everything that goes against your favor, the imaginary figure who is responsible for all the bad things in human history. Isn't it somewhat hypocritical to point fingers at Satan, a man-made idea, instead of looking inward and recognizing our own flaws and shortcomings? After all, isn't it more productive to take responsibility for our actions rather than scapegoating an external, fictional entity?"

"Sir, Satan is real, and since the dawn of creation, he has been actively trying to deceive humanity. His goal is to turn people away from the truth and lead them astray from righteous paths, sowing confusion and doubt from the very beginning of time."

"Bishop, what is your proof for the existence of Satan?"

"The Old Testament, sir."

"How can you be certain that the Old Testament is true?"

"Because it's the word of God."

"It seems we were stuck in a vicious cycle. Let's return to our discussion on morality."

"As you wish, sir."

"In short, morality isn't just about quick wins or one-time results; it's about caring for the well-being of our community for future generations."

"But who really defines what well-being means? And what if a community, using distorted reasoning, convinces itself that true sustainable well-being justifies sins like adultery, homosexuality, pedophilia, and so on? Without divine moral authority, what stops such a descent into darkness? Reason can be misused, and empathy can be suppressed. History has shown us examples of this happening."

"I see you are using an ad hominem argument, using my logic against me. A smart move, Bishop."

"You're very welcome, sir. Engaging in debate and applying logical reasoning are fundamental components of our priesthood education."

"Good to know. The problem isn't the source of morality; it's human capacity for cruelty and rationalizing it. History shows that the best way to persuade good people to do bad things is to make them believe their actions serve a greater good. This higher purpose is often framed as aligning with the divine will or pleasing a higher power, the Lord. By portraying immoral or unethical actions as morally or spiritually right, it becomes easier to manipulate people into justifying behaviors they might normally oppose. A jihadist doesn't fight for material gain but to please his Lord. Even in the darkest times, we see individuals, often non-believers, standing up for what is right, purely out of a shared sense of humanity. Think of abolitionists and human rights activists."

"Good Christians are often driven by a deep sense of justice that is embedded within them, perhaps without their full awareness, shaped by a cultural heritage formed through centuries of religious teachings. Even if they see themselves as secular, the influence of divine law still lingers inside them. You can't just erase centuries of spiritual influence and claim to have a completely independent secular ethical view."

"But you cannot claim that all moral acts are solely caused by religious doctrine. What about the Enlightenment thinkers who promoted individual rights and freedoms, often in direct opposition to the religious dogma of their time? What about the development of legal systems, which increasingly emphasize fairness and justice, often going beyond outdated religious prescriptions?"

"They are all built on a foundation they refused to acknowledge. They attempted to rationalize what was already divinely inspired. Your equity and justice are simply reflections of God's perfect law that are stripped of their true origin. You are plucking fruit from the tree and claiming the tree doesn't exist."

"Not at all. The tree of morality grew from the fertile soil of human interaction and societal growth. It stands strong, its branches reaching out with empathy and understanding. Its roots run deep, grounded in our very DNA, intertwined with our social nature, and shaped through countless generations of human experience. We naturally have an intuitive sense that causing pain without reason is wrong and that helping someone in need is inherently right. No divine command imposes these core values; instead, they are part of our nature, an essential aspect of who we are as social and empathetic beings."

"You atheists play with words, often leaving out any mention of God from our statements. You then repeat these ideas as if they are your own."

"It's your opinion, Bishop, but I am trying to say is that, essentially, our morality is a natural, organic aspect of our human identity—a reflection of our shared history, interconnectedness, and collective desire to lead ethical lives, not because we are told to, but because it aligns with our innate understanding of what it means to be truly human."

"A convenient narrative, perhaps, but ultimately insufficient. When faced with ultimate temptations, such as wealth or power, what prevents a secular person from abandoning these morals for personal gain? The fear of divine judgment and the promise of eternal reward are strong deterrents and motivators that your system lacks. A belief in something beyond ourselves gives our moral choices significance, meaning, and a sense of ultimate accountability."

"When there's no belief in the afterlife, many people realize their choices carry even more significance. There's no heavenly reward or divine forgiveness to depend on. Instead, the idea that we are responsible for our own moral journey can be a much stronger motivator for kindness and honesty than any distant promise or fear of punishment. We build our own heaven or hell right here on Earth by how we treat each other. And we do it because it's the right thing, not just because we're told to."

"I'm sorry to interrupt, gentlemen. Our program's time is almost up, and we only have a few minutes left. Thank you, Professor Stone, for sharing your insights and providing a comprehensive overview of morality from a secular perspective. I also want to thank Bishop Abbot for eloquently clarifying the Christian stance on morality for our audience, which I'm sure will inspire thoughtful reflection. Tonight's discussion was truly exceptional. I can confidently say it was the most profound and educational debate we've had so far. During the program, we explored two opposing viewpoints on morality, encouraging our viewers to think critically and engage with these different perspectives. I hope everyone who watched tonight's program found it both enlightening and enjoyable. Your comments and feedback are important to us and can be shared online on our website. We sincerely appreciate your participation. Thank you again for joining us tonight. We look forward to having you with us for the next episode of The Debate, with a new topic, airing next Sunday. Until then, good night and take care."